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7/23/2008 11:03:34 PM
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fotsgreg
Posts 1658
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I've been working on a story that involves a mass disappearance (a couple of stories actually) and doing some background research on mass disappearances in history and thought it might be fun to take a look at them through other people's eyes.
Much has been made of the Mary Celeste (probably piracy, bu it's a fun and lurid tale), the Roanoke Colony (starvation & assimilation by local Amerindian tribes), and a few others, and things like the Bermuda, the Great Lakes, or the Dragon's Sea Triangles. There've also been land-based mass disappearances (the 5th Norfolk Regiment of the British Army, the Hoer-Verde settlement in Brazil, 1923, three thousand members of the Chinese Army near Nanking, 1937, an entire train full of people traveling from Guanduan to Shanhai, 1937, the village of Stomu in the Congo, 2001, the 12th Company Soviet NKVD, 1945, a Inuit sttlement in the Arctic, etc., etc.). People still go missing all the time, but it's rare these days for an entire community or a large vessel to just suddenly drop off the proverbial or literal radar.
In my story I'm sorta' kinda' halfway connecting some ideas from the legends about the Philadelphia Experiment and a few other things, but Stephen King has mentioned the Roanoke Colony, Dean Koontz made such things the center of his book Phantoms (one of the few books that actually left me shivering), they've been mentioned on Star Trek and even in games such as Assassin's Creed, Half Life, and others.
So, thoughts, speculations, comments, derisive laughter, here's where we can have some fun and discuss the topic of using mass disappearances in SF.
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7/23/2008 11:16:26 PM
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pc
Posts 2433
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You're gonna get me to reading Koontz after all . . .
: : : poof! : : :
IF They have books where . . . . . . . . . . . .
--
This post was made from 100% recycled electrons.
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7/23/2008 11:38:44 PM
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fotsgreg
Posts 1658
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I don't think you'd regret reading Koontz. Many of his books read like combination science fiction/action/chase thrillers. Lightning, for example, is one helluva' good time travel novel complete with the threat of paradoxes. Midnight is a great read with lots of elements of nanotechnology and genetic engineering worked in. Phantoms is just a scary ride from the word "Go!" (the movie is okay, but doesn't really do justice to the book especially in the ending). Strangers is all over the alien abduction phenomena. Dark Rivers Of The Heart is about scary secret government conspiracies and freedom. Watchers is for anyone who loves dogs (ignore the movies - they're garbage, only #3 came anywhere near close to the book) and also deals with genetic engineering.
edited by fotsgreg on 7/23/2008
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7/24/2008 12:09:09 AM
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ratliner
Posts 1204
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As bad as Space:1999 was, it had a few cool ideas. One was a planet that people vanished on. They send down an Eagle, and it comes back empty, except for a dead cave man. The captain goes down, and vanishes. Then they discover the cave man had tooth fillings, and they matched them to a crew member. Meanwhile, the captain has passed through the fog, and become a cave man. All the landing party has done so. The best part (though it could have been executed much better) was how the basic personality of the cave men retained their smarter self, so that the characters played out how they might have in a normal environment.
What happened to the vikings in the Americas? The aliens on Easter Island? The pueblo dwellers in southern CO? The Cleavers? There is something compelling about mysterious mass disappearances. Great topic to work on!
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7/24/2008 12:15:44 AM
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fotsgreg
Posts 1658
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Ah! The Anasazi from the SW. Evidently a flourishing culture of pueblo dwellers until something catastrophic happened to them,. Dean Ing had a theory in his book a few years back. There is strong evidence that the Anasazi may have regressed, gone down in civil war, or have encountered an unfriendly people - whatever happened it was not nice to the Anasazi - there is evidence of cannibalism and ritual murder in what has been recovered of their last days.
They also appear to have vanished as a culture extremely quickly and, again, there is evidence of their dwellings have been abandoned in great haste (their pueblo's were well defended and strategically constructed so as to be capable of prolonged defense against attackers - who or what those attackers were and why the dwellings appear to have been abandoned extremely rapidly are all part of the mystery).
Maybe the same thing that happened to the Mayans happened to the Anasazi - 2012's coming up soon, eh?
edited by fotsgreg on 7/24/2008
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7/24/2008 12:29:33 AM
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Juliette Wade
Posts 607
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There's always (creepy) Jonestown and those guys who were going to meet aliens by downing poisoned jello...
--
Juliette
"You're a linguist - talk to them!" (Stargate)
Blogging about language and culture in SF at http://talktoyouniverse.blogspot.com
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7/24/2008 12:21:33 PM
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ratliner
Posts 1204
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Wasn't there a rapture disappearance in those Left Behind movies?
And where did Researcher disappear to?
edited by ratliner on 7/24/2008
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7/24/2008 2:01:30 PM
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fotsgreg
Posts 1658
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The Rapture does appear significantly in the first of the Left Behind novels.
I don't count Jonestown or whatever those crazies in LA did because they committed mass suicide and did not disappear. The bodies were still there and could be identified and the cause of their deaths was very apparent. In most/all mass disappearance cases there are no bodies, no signs of why the inhabitants left (in the case of Roanoke and the village in the Congo there were apparent attempts to communicate with anyone who came looking for them and some rather ominous clues - there are legends/myths/stories that there were signs that the Mary Celeste's crew an an Alaskan Inuit village suffered something terrible along with the Anasazi and the Mayans (the Mayans, it is appearing more and more likely, probably deserted their cities in the same relative time period due to plague)).
Supposedly, in the case of the village in the Congo, there was a note or a message of some type left behind by a chief or tribal elder that read "Run! It..."
...which is really weird, but is just as likely to be a myth as anything real. I do recall that there was some sort of geological activity in Congo a few years ago and several villages were evacuated due to a cloud of poison gas that had been released, but I'm not sure if this was during that time period, was one of those villages, or whether or not this might have just been the cover-story for some larger and more ominous event (for those of us with that kind of bent).
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7/24/2008 4:06:10 PM
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ljc
Posts 37
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Did you want to include mass disappearances of objects?
Such as:
Street signs (to teenagers' bedrooms?)
Dollar coins (to collectors?)
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7/24/2008 4:41:38 PM
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Alastair
Posts 372
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fotsgreg wrote:
Supposedly, in the case of the village in the Congo, there was a note or a message of some type left behind by a chief or tribal elder that read "Run! It..."
Why does that remind me of the scene in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" where they're reading the inscription on a cave wall that trails off "aargh...":
"But he wouldn't carve 'aargh', he'd just say it".
"Well, perhaps he was dictating."
--
- Alastair
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7/24/2008 6:54:34 PM
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fotsgreg
Posts 1658
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ljc, Don't know, don't care, but definitely have some fun with it (socks are notorious mass disappearance subjects, but we all know they go into the twilight zone or are sucked into a micro-blackhole while in the washer or dryer).
I love Monty Python.
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7/25/2008 4:27:43 PM
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fotsgreg
Posts 1658
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Hey, hey, hey!
Maybe the US Navy is preparing to try the Philadelphia Experiment once again (USS Eldridge, time travel, invisibility, possible teleportation, disappearances, the whole 9 yards).
"US prepares for novel degaussing trials
The US Office of Naval Research (ONR) and the Naval Surface Warfare Center Carderock Division's Ship Engineering Station Philadelphia have installed a novel high-temperature superconducting (HTS) degaussing coil system on board the US Navy (USN) DDG-51 guided-missile destroyer USS Higgins (DDG 76) in advance of a two-year at-sea test and demonstration programme. The new degaussing coil - the first of its kind to be installed on board a naval vessel - was fitted aboard Higgins on 11 July 2008 in San Diego
[first posted to http://idr.janes.com - 22 July 2008]"
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7/25/2008 11:37:17 PM
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Alastair
Posts 372
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OT, but the title of this thread has me wanting to say "mass doesn't disappear, it just converts to energy".
Sorry.
--
- Alastair
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7/26/2008 12:06:46 AM
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fotsgreg
Posts 1658
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LOL, Alastair.
Hey, nobody ever said we couldn't have a little fun with the idea.
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7/26/2008 12:55:10 AM
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b.n.q. Preston
Posts 161
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Greg says:"[the] Anasazi from the SW[were] Evidently a flourishing culture of pueblo dwellers."
My college house mate, anthropologist Dr. Peter Whitely, back in the 1970's reckoned from his studies that the Anasazi settlements centered at Chaco Canyon were outposts of central Mexican civilization, i.e. Aztec, not Pueblo Indian. There have been studies of late that indicate that cannabilism was practiced by the Anaszi. This practice is unheard of in the Pueblos.
Some of the architecture at Chaco Canyon is reminiscent of the Aztecs and not typical of Pueblo design. The large portico at Chaco is unlike anything at any of the Pueblos.
I have seen the Navajo word 'Anasazi' being often translated as 'ancient ones.' Navajo speakers would just as likely give the meaning as 'ancient enemies.'
I visited Chaco Canyon in New Mexico with my good friend, Elizabeth Fragua, back in the 70's. Liz is a member of the Laguna Pueblo and lives at Old Laguna. From Chaco, the Laguna Pueblo is about 75 miles SE near Mt. Taylor, which is easily seen on the horizon. Liz would not go into any of the kivas, because they were in her words, "Very evil places." Liz was of the opinion that Chaco Canyon was a very unpleasant place and a person would do well not to spend much time there. Laguna has been inhabited for a long time. Liz's ancestors lived there or at least nearby when Chaco Canyon was still occupied.... I would give some credence to what the local Indians had to say about the place... especially when it's, without exception, all bad.
Orlin
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7/26/2008 1:25:10 AM
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fotsgreg
Posts 1658
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I believe that Dean Ing also brought up those same points about the Anasazi in his book, Orlin. I've also heard that the Navaho occasionally translated the word Anasazi as "ancient evil" and Dean Koontz in his book Phantoms also uses the term (though I don't believe he connects the Anasazi and the "Ancient Evil").
It must be cool to be friends with people who are actually in the know regarding the pueblo dwellers and the Anasazi.
I have heard that there might be linkages between the Anasazi and mid-American cultures, but I haven;t done much research into it.
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7/26/2008 3:50:00 AM
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b.n.q. Preston
Posts 161
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Greg, the impression that I got from the locals was that they didn't much care to where the Anasazi disappeared... just as long as they were gone and didn't come back! My guess is that the Lagunas, Zunis, Zias, etc. were the ones who ended up in the Anasazi boiling pots.
So while the Anglo 'We seek the knowledge and mysteries of the ancient ones' crowd may love Chaco Canyon, the local Pueblo Indians regard a trip there to be like a tourist's visit to Auschwitz... with the difference being that they don't know exactly what went on in the Canyon, they just know it was bad.
If the Anasazi were in fact from Mexico, there was almost certainly interaction with the local population over several hundred years. It is most interesting that there don't seem to be any stories about the Anasazi or what happened to them... not even any recognition that they even existed.. but still there is the feeling that Chaco Canyon is a place best avoided.
It really is a mystery. We know next to nothing factually about the Anasazi. They built the largest pre-Columbian stone structures in the present United States and it looks like they just packed up and left.
For those who haven't visited Chaco Canyon, I would really recommend a visit if you ever get the chance. A few years ago the 25 miles of dirt road into the place was paved so the trip is a bit easier. Walking around the place by moonlight, you'd think you had just landed next to a ruined city on another world.. and you would be right. I don't stand around singing Cum-by-Ya though... after a few minutes I start getting a feeling that maybe I'd better be going. Oh! one final thing.. I hope you don't mind if I don't go into any of the kivas with you...sort a phobia I guess.
Orlin
edited by b.n.q. Preston on 7/26/2008
edited by b.n.q. Preston on 7/26/2008
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7/26/2008 10:21:30 AM
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Marian
Posts 898
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Actually the other pueblos mention the arrival of refugees about the time of the Anasazi disappearance (which also about the time of a 20+ year drought). These legends make it clear the newcomers were simply absorbed into existing societies. That still leaves a large number unaccounted for however.
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7/26/2008 11:49:11 AM
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pc
Posts 2433
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On our recent vacation we visited Fort Ross, where they've added some excellent historical displays.
The Russians had a flourishing community there by 1812 -- before the Spanish got that far north. What's more, they never fought the local Indian tribes, but traded with them and taught various skills. Both the hired Aleut fur hunters and local Indians had nearby villages, and intermarried quite a bit.
Meanwhile, after Mexico became independent, they dissolved the Missions and their social system, cutting thousands of 'mission Indians' loose -- with fewer survival skills, and much competition for their ancient lands. (They did not fare well . . . )
Our coastal climate is not good for growing grain, so the Russians at Fort Ross started orchards and stuff. Even built their own ships!
Ultimately their fate was influenced by negotiations between the Spanish crown and the Tsar in St. Petersburg, then later, with the Hudson's Bay Company.
So the Russians sold Fort Ross, not to a Mexican don, but to the 'Americanized' Swiss immigrant John Sutter, to be managed by one of this company men. The place continued to prosper, while most of the Mexican californios lost their vast ranch lands.
My point is, the 'influence' of distant Mexico City, much less of Spain, was never a beneficial one, up this way.
(And wow is that an unpopular thing to say, in certain circles, around here!!!)
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edited by pc on 7/26/2008
edited by pc on 7/26/2008
--
This post was made from 100% recycled electrons.
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7/26/2008 2:12:34 PM
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b.n.q. Preston
Posts 161
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Marian says "Actually the other pueblos mention the arrival of refugees about the time of the Anasazi disappearance."
The drought period was tough on everybody, especially the Anasazi and their central town at Chaco Canyon. Visiting there now makes one wonder how a ranch family could make a go of it, much less a town of at least several thousand.
How the Anasazi interacted with their neighbors is a mystery. When I was young, the story was that the Pueblo Indians were the Anasazi and that Chaco Canyon and all the surrounding sites had been abandoned because of the lengthy drought. The Pueblos probably did take in refugees from Chaco... but the grand poo-bahs may have left town entirely and gone back to the South. If the Anasazi were related to the Aztecs, I can see why the locals were glad when they got the Anasazi foot off their necks. It would explain why there would no stories of the great and wonderful city of Chaco Canyon... just a mention of refugees and silence.
In New Mexico, there is no love for Mexico City either... their authority was in Madrid, thank you very much. For example, Hopi Indian complaints about land encroachment by the Navajo were sent to Madrid, not Mexico City, in the early 1700's. The Hopi's said that the Navajo were clearly violating the land boundary, and they expected King Philip to do something about it. They were still pissed when Ronald Reagan had a commission try to settle the boundary dispute for the umpteenth time. The Hopi aren't very happy about the outcome... they still want the 1680 boundary (which they would have if that Philip and Reagan hadn't been such wussies and had kicked some Navajo butts off Hopi land! [that's their view, not mine]).
If you hear someone waxing poetically about the wonderful, peaceful land that was America before the Europeans came.. just remember: not so much.
Orlin
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